1S1: our, class today. um one is Diane she's a G-S-I, um, so she's just observing. and um, i'm sorry i don't know your name.

2R1: Janine.

3S1: Janine she's, um, gonna tell you a little bit more about what she's doing that's why we have a microphone, just so you all know, what's going on and, consent to it.

4S1: okay. alright. so i hope that's not gonna make you all um, self-conscious, um, cuz we won't have a very good class if you are, but um... today i wanted to talk about um, we'll, partially talk about the lectures that we had this week, which were about, political systems and, i wanted to start off, doing that by talking about, power and social organization social control. maybe you wanna talk to her after just to make sure, um that you know what's going on with that. okay.um... so, you had some reading on this in your textbook. um, i thought it was pretty advanced, a lot of the concepts that were talked about in there and so, maybe we could just talk about, how these sort of apply to your, own experiences. so i was hoping you could just sort of throw out some, ideas, about, how, social control works in our society. basically, why do you do all of the things that you do? um, if you, if you go into um, a store and you see something that you really want, and, you, can't afford it, why don't you just take it...? assuming that you don't of course. Chris.

5S2: well when you're younger you do.

6S1: i think though that's, that's a good point, actually. so let's let's, keep that in mind.

7S2: and sometimes that when you're older you still do like if you're a, if you're a criminal.

8S1: sure. i mean, i i mean, social control is obviously, not perfect. so um so yo- so young people. um what does that tell us about young people, um, if young people are more likely to say, steal something? you might wanna talk to her after class just to, find out what she's doing and, whether you wanna participate in it.

9SU-m: that's you.

10S3: me?okay.

11S1: um, okay so what does that, what does that tell us already, if if young people, are more likely to steal things than, than o- um, older people? yeah.

12S4: either that they're, more rebellious, or maybe, or just that they're not as accustomed to, society's norms yet.

13S1: yeah that's, yeah, i mean, yeah rebellious, or, or not we, we could call it socialized. which basically just means they're not accustomed to society's norms yet. yeah.

14S2: or they're just too young to understand the uh, consequences of, stealing

15S1: oh that's yeah, and this is important um, the consequences... somebody else have something they wanted to say?

16S5: there also like, isn't like as many consequences for them.

17S1: yeah, that's true, i mean, um why do you think that there are not as many consequences? i mean why do, why do um, why does society_ why is our society set up so there won't be as many consequences?

18S6: cuz they aren't gonna like, throw like a six-year-old in jail for like stealing something or like make him pay a big fine (he'll) probably just turn- return it if like

19S1: i meanthat's absolutely true but i mean why, what is it that, what is the value behind that? what is the idea behind that? yeah.

20S2: i mean i think we could talk about like the six year old boy with like the gun obviously, you know uh yeah.it's like they live in a dream world kinda. you know how you like, when you're young you have like imaginary friends and like, you just have like your own little world and you, you really believe it. you don't think

21S1: okay that's definitely um,that's definitely important. yeah?

22S7: to like, to kids the only consequence like of stealing is getting, what they're stealing. like there's no like punishment and for the kid like, shooting that girl to him he was like, repaying her for hitting him cuz i think that was what the thing was, like that was the only consequence he didn't think he was gonna kill her i mean he doesn't, he just thinks he's gonna pay her back like, he

23S2: right he, he only like understood death by how the movie portrayed it. like big deal like, another one, like in T- in T-two like, thousands of people die. you know to him

24S1: so why is it, why is it that, young children don't understand, say, about, what it means to kill somebody? and it's not a difficult, question really i'm just trying to get you to, really spell it out.

25S7: they've never really seen it sorry?i mean they've never they_ when you're little your parents don't expose you to death like, my parents like when my grandparents died and i was like four or five they didn't take me to the funeral so like, i was never exposed to death until i was like old enough to like, handle it.

26S1: so basically you could say that um, basically s- alright if young people are not socialized, and they're protected, they're not yet socialized they're protected. um, the, period of of youth is one, i mean, i'm sort of drawing on your comments and sort of, adding to them but, the period of, of youth is one where, where people get socialized where people get, taught. um, what, they need to know in order to live in society say. and they're protected, so that they don't, learn, everything too fast. is that, i mean is that one of the values, of our society? i know you probably heard that before, um, so i mean what is it that they're being taught? i mean for one thing, they're being taught, well i'll move this over they're being taught consequences right? cuz you said they didn't know, what the consequences are. um, what else, yeah.

27S8: they don't like they don't know the difference between right and wrong, for like a certain, amount of time and so if you teach 'em everything, if you teach 'em how to like, use a gun then they don't know, if it's right or wrong to use the gun.

28S1: yeah so they're being taught morals. did you have something to say?

29S9: that's, what i was gonna say.

30S1: what else? anything else that they're being, taught? yeah.

31S7: well it's like, and a lot of times when you see movies and kids are like, exposed to

32SU-m: just ignore it.

33S7: when kids are exposed to some, (like) murders later on in life they have problems. you know what i mean if they're exposed to something too early, and later on they have problems like being abused, you know later on they have problems it's like you know like,

34S1: yeah that's true or- yeah or- right so i guess that falls under the, under the category of, of we protect them from learning things too, quickly. um, is there, is there a connection? between, between consequences and morals? i mean i- basically these are, these are, these are things, both of them that um, our society has decided that, that um, or someone, it's not, i mean it's not something that you know everyone in the society obviously sat down and decided but, um, somehow we've come to this, agreement that, young people need to learn, consequences, um and they need to learn, morals. yeah.

35S9: i think, they use the consequences to teach morals.

36S1: yeah, that's a good, that's a good one. so basically, um what kinds of consequences are there? i mean there's one consequence like, you were saying um, the boy shoots a little girl, and she dies and that's sort of a natural, consequence. um, what other kind of consequences, are there that might, might be, useful, to teach morals?

37S7: just like sitting in a corner.

38SU-m: punishment.

39S1: punishment. yeah, so there's, there's um punishment. and there's natural consequences. so um, so basically, um, children are young, they're they're being taught, that if they do certain things, there'll be certain punishments. um, and, that's because, there's underlying morals right? that um, lead us to, punish them for doing certain things. so th- i mean that's, i mean do you think that those are um, absolute? absolutely true? the morals and the consequences, or do you think that they're, somewhat arbitrary and decided by, each society each culture, separately? i mean for example, i mean we were talking about lots of different, um, societies, today right? um, we talked about the, the band, tribe, chiefdom, state, typology. so one of the things, that Dr Kottak said, was that um, in the band, tribes and chiefdoms it- it's important, for the leaders to, to um, be very generous and, give, a lot of gifts to the people right? whereas he said, in a state society people have more, freedom to collect, goods. and they don't have to redistribute them. so that's sort of a difference in morals right...? i mean so do you think that there are, there are, morals that are absolute or do you think, or do you think that all morals are, cultural? yeah?

40S10: i don't think it's really a difference i think that, in bands tribes and chiefdoms, they had to do that, to get people to follow 'em. and, support 'em. but if they could've, like just kept it all to themselves they would've.

41S1: maybe so. i mean i'm not saying that's not true but it was a, it's a standard of that society right? yeah.

42S2: i think all morals are created. like if you look at World War Two, and, you know murder wasn't bad anymore because you were, as long as you can like, justify your actions, you can create any moral.

43S1: yeah that's an interesting, that's an interesting, point of view. yeah.

44S3: i was gonna say that uh, i think, i think morals are all the same, but i think uh, different cultures, rank, the importance of dif- different morals accordingly. uh, just, like an example is, if you compare, Eastern thought, with Western thought, over any any range of topic it's like, Eastern thought is very, group oriented you know like, you know you, you acquiesce to the to the person a- above you or you know someone like, like someone that you, that you should hold more respect for, and Western thought's very like individualistic and you know personal rights and all that stuff so. i d- i th- i think morals are, basically the same from culture to culture. but it would depend on the way they rank the importance of each one.

45S1: yeah that's a really interesting, that's a really interesting way to look at it. i like that. i mean yeah basically he said that um, in some way you can have both you can say that, that there are, morals which are universal, but, culture still plays a big role, in determining, um, which morals take precedence. and um, that's actually something there's a um, a really famous, philosopher who, who wrote something very, very similar, to that so, just in case you're interested, um, Alasdair MacIntyre. i don't know jus- just to let you know. but yeah he's he's he's, um a really well-respected philosopher who said something very similar. yeah.

46S11: um, as for like whether or not there are absolute morals, i definitely think that there're, are neces- whether or not they're universal morals is, i don't think ever gonna be, known or whe- whether or not they're socially constructed or whatnot, but definitely i think like something as extreme as a child killing someone, um, some are more, like are more obvious than others. and haven't been known to like, work, like certain actions.

47S1: yeah, that's yeah that's a good point.

48S2: i don't think there's any universal morals. um you look back in time, before like monotheistic religion, and they would sacrifice people, to God. as long as you believe like, you have that faith that, i don't know how to put in words really but, give me a minute i'll come back to it but, as lon- like i was saying as long as you can justify it, it's okay. like, i don't think, over time, there's been no moral that's been, completely universal.

49S1: so what does that mean to justify it? like how how do we justify?

50S2: like you're sacrificing the person for God for like a higher (meaning.)

51S12: if it's culturally justified. yeah i think yeah that'sif society doesn't have a problem with it as a whole then, there's no punishment there's no shame in doing it, it's common practice so,

52S1: yeah i think there's a lotta truth to that point too. yeah, did you wanna say, i'm sorry

53S9: no, never mind.

54S1: i got your point. it's the second time that happened to you today. um, yeah. i think that's a good point.

55S10: i think that like has a lot to do with like looking at other cultures from like, your own culture like, like, we can look at 'em and say like, that it's a bad thing it's not moral for our like, but then they look at and it is moral so, so like it's hard to say like, you can't, you can't like, um, look at other cultures like and, whatever say if they're right or wrong then it's like hard to say.

56S1: yeah i mean that's, yeah that's basically, that's like, cultural relativism which we were talking about a couple weeks ago. definitely becomes important. yeah.

57S2: and not to stereotype but like, some uh Gypsy tribes it's uh, like to steal is how they survive. you know like moving from one place to another and by stealing that's how they get by. it's not amoral to them, it's uh- or immoral to them.

58S5: (well they need to)

59S1: i'm sorry waitshe's, i'm gonna give her precedence cuz she, she always has her point taken away.

60S9: um, about the Gypsy thing but, like, if, it's justified to them but they, pay consequences, if they're in our society because that's wrong in our society.

61S2: right but not, but not within their own.

62S1: so, so that_ i mean that's a interesting point though because, um we were talking about consequences and um, i mean there could be cases where consequences and morals are not, related. so, um, and this is something also to think about. with this, with this typology actually, because um, this is something that i wanted to get to, um in class today, um i mean we talk about all these different types of, governments right? but um, a- at the bottom line in in the year two thousand, are there, are there really any band, tribe or chiefdom governments? i mean the answer's no. um, every, there are bands tribes and chiefdoms, but they all, live in states. so a Gyp- Gypsies would be an example, of that phenomenon um, state governments, all over the world have, have the ultimate power, and, they can, they can assert, their own consequences and their own morals, over these other types of organization which may still exist, but they're not, they're not really governments anymore in the, in the ultimate sense.

63S13: in the like the Amazon they still are, a little bit

64S1: sorry?

65S13: like in the Amazon where they, really have no contact they'veoutside, the tribes have no contact at all.

66S1: um, well they do, well very little i mean that's, that'si mean that's that's an interesting, situation to bring up. i mean they do have contact, with with the government at this point. um, i think this was discussed in your book but um, maybe even thirty-five years ago, there would've been tribes, that had pretty much autonomy. but, but now, um, really they don't. i mean if they wanna to get some, kind of rights, um you know there's different, competing groups, say there's miners who wanna go in and, and um, or loggers that wanna go in and use the land, the tribes also have something that they wanna do, on the land and it's really the state, that has to mediate. just like, just like Dr Kottak was talking about today, um, with how um, in the on the coast of Peru he was saying the, different groups expand they come into conflict, and then a larger government forms to mediate, and that's sort of, you can look at it the same way there. yeah?

67S7: it's kind of like the situation in Waco. because they thought they were living by, they were living by their own rules and stuff in another cultu- you know in another yeahset of consequences so, i mean it's kind of, even though their morals are different they still have to pay the consequences of, the rest of their surroundings.

68S1: yeah and that's a really good point and i mean that's, i mean in some cases i mean they d- they di- they weren't successful, and maybe we're glad of that, or- i mean not that they were treated fairly of course but, maybe we're glad that they didn't um, you know, weren't able to secede and form their own country or whatever but, i mean that, that can be something that ends up, having consequences, for state governments as a whole, if if s- groups, form that have their own, values, they can end up challenging and changing, the way that the larger society is structured so that's, that's another, another thing to think about, with the whole issue of power and, and social control. um, d- now, we're talking about morals i think morals are really central to this but, there's other things, there're other, types of control, besides, morals that are exerted on us i think. um, for example, let's say um, coming to class, right? um, it's not immoral, to cut class well maybe it- i mean you could ma- maybe someone could make an argument like, i don't know your parents paid all this money and, you made a promise to them to go to class and so it's immoral to cut class but, um, let's say uh, let's say for the sake of argument you know you paid your own, tuition, it's your own choice, um, but you're still here, you came to class, um ho- hopefully part of the reason is because you like coming to class and you're learning something and you're, you know. but um, in some cases maybe not in this class but in some class that you've taken you probably didn't, really like it or really get that much out of it but you still, went to class anyway. um, not because it was immoral not to go but, but why?

69S2: the grade.

70S1: i mean yeah, i mean this, still gets back to consequences definitely, um social consequences. um, and that's one reason. do you think that's the only reason? or if you do come to class because you, you're getting something out of it say, you're learning something, that you wanna learn, what is it that, what is it that, makes you wanna learn, these particular things? how, why why have you decided that, the kind of things that you can learn, by, going to class at a university are, more worth knowing or more worth spending your time on, than say the kind of things you could learn by camping? yeah.

71S8: maybe you have like higher aspirations like on a- like if you have a different, if you have like a, some kind of goal later in life that you wanna achieve, then you can't really achieve that by going camping

72S1: yeah, i mean that's, that's an important, i mean that's related to consequences but it's, it's separate... i mean, yeah definitely goals, definitely goals are important. and that's wh- for a lot of people that's that's the reason why they do, go to school. what if you um, i mean there must be someone like this, in the class, um like, me, when i was, um your age. what if you really don't know what you wanna do, when you graduate from college? i mean chances are probably that um, going to college is gonna help you with whatever you, end up deciding to do, but if you really don't know what you're gonna do how do you know, that um, going to college is a good thing? i mean this, i mean what is it, yeah.

73S14: because you've seen it work for other people, yeah and soyou

74S1: that's true, yeah and that's, i mean that's um, that's important, that's an important part of socialization is, is um imitation. and you sort of have to trust that, things will go the same way for you that they go, for other people. yeah.

75S15: it's also not exactly a bad thing to learn, new information i mean even if that, even if, a college education isn't gonna be exactly, what you're gonna, if it's not gonna take you where you wanna be it's not exactly a bad thing to, learn, new stuff.

76S1: yeah, that's true, um, definitely. um but how do you know what kind of, what kind of stuff that you, that you wanna learn...? ho- i mean how do you know what kind of stuff is, is more important or more valuable? yeah.

77S8: you have to experience it all, and then you get to, to decide after that.

78S1: i mean that's definitely, that's definitely, that's definitely um, that's definitely, true, to s- i mean with- within some boundaries right though. yeah.

79S3: i think it's also too to some extent social, social conditions social norms like, when you're talking about something as broad as college you know. i- in our, in our society it's, it's the thing that you should do, you know you should go to college if you were in high school and you were smart. like if you meet someone and you know, they were really smart in high school and then they said yeah i just didn't wanna go to college, most of us would think, you know what's, what's wrong with this person? and you know in other societies it's like, to not go to, you know after you graduate from high school it's (natural) for them just to go into the workplace and they don't think twice about, going to college so i think it's also, social, social norms and that kind of thing. it, it can't really ap- it doesn't really apply to, something specific as going to class, going, like skipping class. but when you're talking about going to college i think it does.

80S1: yeah i think that's um, i think that's a really good point, um, and let's yeah i mean that's, probably a point that's, more related to um anthropology. um, but i, i mean this isn't seeming like to, um too much information to you all but i guess what i'm trying to get at, by getting you to give me all these, different answers is how um, well first of all social life is really complex. and there are a- there are social norms but then there're also other factors that help people to choose, between different social norms, and um, and even factors that influence people to, to go outside of social norms. but the social norms are still exist and they still, have, some kind of, interaction with these other factors so, by throwing all of these out i, i hope that you're, starting to think about how these things might fit together. um, how di- how do social norms, relate to the goals? i mean this is, really just building on what you said but, but um, i mean, when we set goals, how do we decide what our goals, should be? i mean, do you think for example that if someone didn't go to college it means they're gonna be, miserable for the rest of their life? and their life is worthless? i mean probably, not. i hope, you don't think that. but yet you still set a goal that that, that involves going to college, so. i mean i think that has something to do with, with social norms. i mean what, does anyone have any, any more, points on that? or what kind of, yeah?

81S2: i mean it just depends what makes you happy. like if i was, George Bush's, son like the first one? i probably wouldn't've even gone to school. you know i would've had all the money, i wouldn't've wanted, wanted to be a politician. i would've been happy you know? get a job from my dad and,

82S1: well yeah and there's, there's another, there's another question. this is a really good, a really good point that you bring up. um, i mean we say that, and maybe you would i mean i'm not saying you wouldn't, but um there's lots of people in the world, take Bill Gates you know for an example, who um, make lots of money, have lots of money or other people who inherit lots of money. they don't have to work, but they do.

83S16: it makes 'em happy.

84S1: why does it make them happy?

85S16: gives their lives, gives their life like self-worth, i don't know.

86S2: well you need something to do. you go crazy when you like stagnate and have nothing to do.

87S1: i think that's, that's i mean there's definitely um, there's definitely, some truth to this, i mean, i'm not saying you're wrong, but on the other hand think about um, did you ever read, um any novels by Jane Austin say or, see any of the movies? like what?um, i mean those people didn't do do anything. right? i mean they they um, they play the piano and, draw a little bit and write a letter and, go out for a walk, and it didn't seem to bother them i mean, th- having lots of money to them basically meant they didn't have to do anything and they were happy about it right? so why is it that um, that we don't? yeah.

88S12: it like maybe it was a little more socially accepted, in that time period. it seems now, everybody, if you're not doing something, then people really question why you're not doing anything since everybody's so busy and there's it's just

89S1: yeah, ithink that's, yeah i mean that's, that's what i would say. yeah?

90S4: even doing that gives you something to do it's just in a different context. it's jus- people need like, some sense of accomplishment, like in their lives to know that they're, doing something i mean, o- obviously it'd be great if it's always you know for a worthy cause but, even just playing the piano, can give yourself some sa- self-satis- you know -faction that you can, maybe, you know, show it to other people or, you know, bring it to other areas.

91S1: i mean i think that's true that people, i mean they are always doing something, definitely, and that's an important point. but i mean i just wanna emphasize that that we, we've, gotten back again to the um, to the social norms. i mean in our society there's a, a norm that says, people should be doing something all the time. um, what's wrong with you if you're not doing something? um, in that society, well people still i mean it wasn't, you know they didn't, sit in a chair and stare at the wall all day but, but um there was a different definition of what it means to have a sense of accomplishment or what it means, to do something. so um, that's, that's another way that um, that culture sort of determines... in a way, or helps to determine i should say. what, what we do. so i mean... why do we, why do we have these, beliefs in social norms? i mean what do you think? how did we get this idea that we should be doing something all the time? or how did we get this idea that um, or how do you get an idea that you should go to college even though, maybe some other people? yeah.

92S16: i think a lot of it gets relayed through like your parents. like i know my parents have a strong push for education, it always comes first. whereas like, in school you could always see like the people whose parents didn't push as hard and, then i- i- like it's really, up to the child and, they don't care so much. but then there's the people whose parents don't care and then they care a lot.

93S1: definitely. i mean i think it definitely has, a lot to do with, with your parents. um, i mean some things, you know are really different, for different parents i- different parents emphasize different, kind of goals and some things, um that maybe all parents within, a certain society, all, share so that's, that's really important yeah.

94S14: i think a lot of it also has to uh do with what you choose to sort of like latch onto like whether it's your parents or what you see on T-V and it's sort of all, um, developed as you get older, and, like sometimes for people it's like gangs they see you know? and th- you know that's you sorta start to, form, those things. yeahor at least use that as your starting point. i don't know.

95S1: yeah and i mean that's, that's a really important, way of putting it too that, that um, within, the category that you could call social norms there's all these different, one second, there's all these different choices that, that people could make, they can choose to follow their parents they can choose to follow T-V which is still, setting up another, kind of norm in a way. because when you watch T-V. i mean think about this next time that you watch T-V cuz, cuz i think you'll um, you'll notice, um, a lot of shows have some kind of moral lesson or some kind of, um, some kind of values that they're promoting either, you know crime is bad or, um, family harmony is good or, um something about, love and relationships or there's all different of societal norms that you could see, really explicitly in T-V programs. and then there's also the peers. which our, which our society, um, you know sometimes, perhaps, if it's if it's gangs maybe it's not the most um, healthy or productive, way to, um, kind of society part of our society, you could argue. but, still, um, peers and kind of peer pressure, um is a kind of social norm. and i mean especially in a, in a really big society like ours in a in a, state society, um, there are different, there are different, factors and different choices, that um, you know in a band maybe there wouldn't be quite as many, um, but there're different, influences, that can, come in. did you have something to say?

96S3: uh i was gonna say that, you know social norm is such a broad category you know it covers, shaking hands, you know as well as like, i don't know helping helping an old lady across the street or something but, i think in uh, in industrialized, in industrialized nations, the state plays a really large part in, monitoring or, at least tweaking social norms to their, you know to their preference so that it's, it, it all, it all plays together to, help the state function, most effectively.

97S1: yeah i mean that's, that's a really interesting point. and a lot of people, a lot of people do say that that the state, um i mean the state, definitely has an interest right? in in um, in keeping, society ordered. um in making, sure that, people fill different tasks, in society you know if no one, um wanted to work at McDonald's then, no one could ever eat there for example. um so, the state, definitely has it- has an interest in, promoting certain, kinds of norms. but how does, i mean, and this is a really, you know it's kind of almost a philosophical question so, i don't expect you all to be able to answer it, right now but um, how does, how do these norms get from, the state or from, some body of government, to, the people? how does, how does, the state control people? i mean it's, yeah.

98S3: i mean just in, every every connection that the state has with, you know in in terms of politicians' speeches, in their censorship of the media, um, you know in in their dealings with, with uh, with religious leaders and, and i mean there's so many, there's so much literature on you know how, religion is just it's, i forget the, what the quote is but it's uh, it's a, it's a, it's a pill for the p- pill for the people thing, i think it's by Marx. by Marx?

99S1: oh yeah i mean there's um,well yeah this is um, that's Marx, Marx who said that um.

100S3: religion is the uh is the, either of the p- opiate of the people. yeah, opium

101S1: um, opium, opiate of the massesyeah. yeah. i mean that's and so that's i mean that's a um, that's another, another whole, i should put it up here too. um, that's another whole area. where norms can come from. religion. and um, i mean what is the connection between state and religion that's another, that's another, kind of interesting topic because, um as you probably all, are thinking right now, um, we have, the idea of separation of church and state, in the United States. so there's, there's an- a belief an attempt that, that these two things should be separate but, in some sense they're not. um, i remember, um when i went to, to um, Taiwan for some reason that was the first time that i, i realized, this um that all of our, government offices closed on Christmas. they don't close on any other, um, religious holidays of other religions but they always close on Christmas. um, so that's already something. it's not huge but, i mean some kind of an acknowledgment that, the state, gives preferential treatment to certain, religions, over others. um, not that i'm saying necessarily that they shouldn't do that. i think it's almost impossible, to completely separate, um s- church from state. um, yeah.

102S3: yeah i was just gonna say, i mean i- it's, all you have to do is just look at the Republican party, and you can see very well that religion and state are definitely not separated, you know like, there's such a, huge co- Christian coalition and, that's trueand all that, yeah and there's you know like whowho's making the laws? it's it's people that are religious so, yeahit's impossible to, separate religion and state really. and look at the, constitution you know all men, created under under God. religion is a belief in God. not everyone believed in, in God s- you know so you can't i mean, even, starting from that point it was, botched.

103S1: well that's true i mean, religious people are making the, laws you know they're gonna follow their convictions they, would be, unethical not to follow their convictions. um that's, that's certainly true. um, yeah it's it's i mean, if if, we're talking about morals, um, i mean, that has to be, always, connected to religion. definitely. does i mean does anyone wanna, stand up for the separation of church and state? yeah.

104S14: um i wa- i definitely think though that, um i'm not, i don't know like how far we've come but, a lotta people have this notion that it should either happen overnight, or that it should never happen and, rather than believing that it can happen gradually. and something like church and state, i mean as connected as they still might be, i mean not necessarily as much and, you know, again when people ha- think that it should just happen like that, you know, usually the consequences, are negative. and, you know because the

105S1: well that's,yeah i mean that's a good point. i mean when people, try to suddenly, separate church from state when they had been really connected, can have lots of, problems um, like i don't know if you've all f- been, following, um what goes, what's, goes on in Turkey i mean i haven't, followed it as much as i'd like to but, um, you might remember last year there was a, a woman who um, who was wearing a head scarf, and, in the legislature, and they um, kicked her out of the legislature, for doing that. um, i mean that wouldn't happen in the United States because, we have this idea of freedom of religion. um, so we'd say that people should, be able to follow their religion, um and that shouldn't prevent them from holding government offices. but in Turkey they're, i mean they had a really, um religious government the government was, the religion it was all tied together, completely tied together and they're just trying to, rip it apart, in this kind of radical way within the last, say one hundred years and so it's led to, these kind of really, um harsh laws to try to separate it out. so that's a um, that's a interesting, point. but then i mean on the other hand you could say that um, i mean are we moving towards, separating church and state? i don't know. um, all the candidates and there's been some, a lot of, talk in the newspapers about how all the candidates have to talk about their religious beliefs as part of their, campaigns in the current election. um, that might be, more true now than it was, i don't know, eight years ago or whatever... yeah.

106S17: well my, my understanding of the constitution, it says separation of ch- church from the state but, it doesn't mean that, the religion can't, have a say in the state because the whole meaning of that was that the state, couldn't overtake religion, like they were doing in Great Britain. so there's no way that you can sit there and say, you know you can't bring your religious beliefs into politics because, it's a part of your everyday life and then that'd be, crossing your constitutional right of freedom of religion so, i think if, a candidate wants to tell, their religious belief i say go for it i mean, but i i totally disagree with the whole s- m- the state and the religion, can't be intermixed because, the whole purpose of that was that the state couldn't tell people, about their religious beliefs not that religion is (different from) the state.

107S1: i mean i think,i mean, the the answer, that i would give to that just you know, devil's advocate or whatever is that maybe, th- maybe the arrow has to be, two-way if there's a connection at all. because if um, if someone brings their religious beliefs into politics say, and en- enacts laws based on their religious beliefs, and other people have different beliefs, you know that are totally completely different, then somehow, the first person's beliefs are infringing on the second person. you could you could say. i mean, or not. just to throw out an argument. but i know i- i think i mean i think that, just because you know i could make that argument doesn't mean that that what you're saying is not true because, um, all of these things could be ideals, that we could be, we could try to separate the two, doesn't mean necessarily that, we'll have to succeed completely in separating them in order for it to be worth trying at all so that's, that's still a valid point. um, oh one more thing i wanted to say about, about this, typology. um, Dr Kottak said that there, um in the band tribe and chiefdom there's there's a kinship principle right? um, that there's, there's some kind of um, biological relationship between the people. um, well of course it's not really, biological. because, that's a western, concept but, there's some kind of, relationship by marriage and, birth. um between the people living in, in these kind of societies. whereas in the state society, well in our state society there isn't right? i mean there's people from all over the world that come to America and they're all, citizens of the state. but um, is that always true? i mean i- can there be a kinship principle, of any kind in a state society? i mean i think this is a really interesting, sort of dilemma for a lot of states. um, because, i mean America's kind of different because we, have this whole ideology that um, we're a country of immigrants but um, i mean many states, have in- a different kind of ideology which which has to do with ethnicity. so, take Germany for example since that's a, kind of a extreme example maybe, um, there's an idea in Germany that, there's something called German ethnicity right? and somehow, having German ethnicity, um, has something to do with living in Germany. in some kind of a way. um, i- i mean it's this principle that basically, was behind the idea that East Germany and West Germany should be one country right? um, they're two separate countries but, they're all German so they should all be one country, so we should bring the two of them together. um, at the same time, there's a lot of immigrants in Germany as well. and um, there was, some debate over, i mean now, immigrants to Germany can can have, citizenship but that's a really recent, change. um up until, about two years ago, um, there were different kinds of ci- different kinds of citizenship for people who were, German and people who were, not ethnically German. because there is an idea that, that you know to be German. um, i mean in the end it comes, i mean to me like, it sounds to me like it comes down to a kinship principle a lot like you find, in a band a tribe or a chiefdom. that, basically what you're saying when you're saying, people have, you know an ethnicity like they're all, i mean it doesn't just have to be Germany, um that's just a good example. but, i mean every country in Europe, um, and most countries in the world actually, not every country but, most countries have some kind of idea of what it means to be, really from that country and, it has to do with ethnicity. and, ethnicity you know is some kind of, idea about blood and relatedness. and we're all the same in some kind of, biological, cultural way that ties us together. so, um, it's not a kinship where i could trace my kinship or, um, tell you exactly you know everyone in this, country is my cousin or something like that but, in a way it's still not, as different from the way that these, other, um kinds of governments organize themselves, as, as we might originally think so i just wanted to throw that out. okay give me all your papers and um, if you have any questions... and please, if yeah if you don't, if there's anything that you said in class that you don't want to be, used by this linguistics project, talk to Janine.

108SU-f: um, you got my, i got your email back so, wha- what was that all about?

109S1: wha- i'm sorry what?

110SU-f: it was about like, that you didn't have my final exam,

111S1: oh yeah no i'm sorry about that yeah. i just, i was, um, i was confused i think it was,

112SU-f: that's okay (somebody else)

113S1: yeah. but i found it so it's no problem.

114SU-f: okay good.

115SU-f: i have a question really quick i just wanna know if this is like a (fault) like i was having problems with like costs of like a foraging society uhuhcuz they didn't really show any in the movie.

116S1: yeah

117SU-f: and like, the book doesn't really touch on it all that much like it talks about (farming society) so like i said like a cost, was that they can't support all the people and they can be pushed out, of like they talked about it in, like (Schultz and Nower) talked about it, is that like one human lifetime something is past that oh right.like, they didn't have itlike foraging societies can't survive, in certain areas, yeahthey get pushed there like

118S1: that's a good, that's a good point.

119SU-f: okay, okay i just wanted to make sure.

120S1: alright cool. hi.

121SU-m: i have a question. do you think, there'll ever be a fifth category?

122S1: oh that's a good question.

123SU-m: like cuz you know how you said that there's ethnicity-based, states do you think they'll ever, eventually because the world seems to be going towards a, interconnected kinda, general like, you can be an American but there's no like, you're not it's not like you're German. you know you're American but you're of Italian descent. yeahdo you think there'll ever be a differentiation between, that type of state and like America?

124S1: um well i mean i guess you could say that there is in a way because, i mean this is just like a way of classifying rightthings so you could just classify it differently. but, yeah there could be, years.

125SU-m: i just wondered if um, like years down the road if it'sif it comes to the point where there's no more, real ethnicity based things if they'll take it out of the the state system and call it something else.

126S1: i think, i think that could easilyhappen. and also the other thing that people talk about i don't know if this is, you know true or not but, they say that the whole state, system could, um be moving towards ending because the, you know transportation and communication being so much better that um, being bound to one in particular, i mean states are basically based on land rightso um, but if you could just, you know take an airplane and, be somewhere else or, get on the internet you know, where you actually live, becomes less and less important rightso, so (xx) i meanthat could be another thing that would, yeahyou know change the,

127SU-m: that's really interesting we'll have to see. probably won't happen in this lifetime.

128S1: i don't think so not too soon anyway but we'll see i mean you know

129SU-m: no, it's a slow process.

130S1: it is.