1S1: right. here uh the clipboard. that i ga- okay there. um on the, clipboard is, what i came up with um, at three-thirty in the morning last night. uh, because, i was, sort of reading through the last chapter again where i was talking about, um, folk music and how to sort of nuance that view an- and see um, rap music and then, what i, realized then was that i want to um, explain s- sort of say, this is why they could have come under criticism this is why they were doing sort of uh making a cultural faux pas but then at the same time um, it's absolutely not surprising at all they were accepted by the, um, rap canon thing they moved on because they had not only um, talent and flow, but also um, that, um not all rap is political or has to be community-building or has to to, has to mean anything rightand the um, and even when it does, the importance of political rap becomes the message not the messenger. which is to say that if, they had been black had chosen to, um, as Chuck D puts it you know be black America's C-N-N, that um it wouldn't matter whether or not they were middle class it wouldn't matter whether or not they were um, you know they'd gone to private school what would, basically matter is uh, what was being said and and how they were saying it. um, so, i wanna split it up and, in the first part um, talk about how, sort of say, what i just said which is to say that um that, uh, rap is equally valued in i- its flow its abil- its ability to introduce uh, familiar, sounds in new and interesting ways and, how it sounds as much as it is for its, community-building, use as social protest sort of uh, yo- keeping i- the a a pulse on on black America and then, um, and then, sort of say, you know rappers are not stuck being cultural emissaries or spokespeople for the black community, rather it can be about, all the other things so then, um, what i wanna do is, follow with an analysis of the song Sure Shot, mhmand through, Tricia Rose's definition of flowin' and looking elsewhere in terms of what makes rap um, what makes it good on a purely sonic level explain how this song, um in specific demonstrates all these things. and how, it you know when it when it comes down to, it it's sort of like um, Wynton Marsalis who's always saying you know you can argue with me for years about the what the music means but, but then critics will sort of slam him and he'll say well let's play. let's leave it up to the music to decide. and then um, so, taking that, methodology, um, taking analysis of Sure Shot and showing how, that is, useful as opposed to something that wasn't. um, and then after that, explain how um, that, had they chosen to be_ and and, take a deeper look at, black messengers. which is to say, the um, through a short biography of Chuck D and to um, and, looking at his lyrics say, um here is authentic, political black rap. and here is um, you know you know authentic being in quotes, and um, that even when it is, strictly culturally meaningful, that uh, it, um, that the the important part there is what, the text rather than the, speaker of the text. mhmdoes that seem, useful?

2S2: is this s- uh chapter two?

3S1: three

4S2: chapter three. so what you're doing is you're expandi- so, chapter two is about the definition of uh of folk and authenticity, rightand then chapter three is is uh on, how the Beastie Boys manage to make, authentic, style music, um despite, what seem like, their external inauthenticities

5S1: right. th- chapter two sort of sets up, um, the, how rap sort of has fit into the heavily guarded, folk being in quo- cul- in quotes uh folk culture of, of previous black musics um but then, um, chapter three i wanna sorta spend, tearing some of that down or at least complicating it with, um, with the truth which is that the truth being that you know, it doesn't matter, your background you don't even necessarily need to, um be from the street to uh, to be, accepted and understood. that yes, skin color definitely does matter mhm becauseof, reasons cited before like from the first mhm chapter,uh on minstrel singing and uh, and white privilege but then, but when it comes to it down to it like a- acceptance has more to do with flow and it has more to do, um, and less to do with the uh, the k- social background of the, mhmof the rapper. does that make sense?

6S2: yeah it makes sense i guess one uh, nuance i would argue for would be, i worry when you use the term acceptance, by the rap community if it kind of uh, makes the rap community into kind of a homogeneous, uhuhthing that renders like judgments, that are like singular judgments, when in fact, the so-called rap community like any, so-called community probably has divided voices, just like i'm i'm sure when um, 2 Live Crew came out, rightin the eighties there were, some rappers, who said, this is junk. this is uh, this is you know, good-time music and it's misogynistic, and therefore i won't defend it. and then there were probably others, who said, we must defend it because those, who want to condemn 2 Live Crew, also wanna condemn, Public Enemy, or whatever. rightand so, i think that, this is something that i'm, that i always wanna push for, i'm speaking like i'm, writing a book or something every word, that uh... i dislike the idea, of the rap community as like rendering singular judgments like with one voice

7S1: so how do i measure, how do i measure that?

8S2: well i think there aremultiple voices cuz i think like for example, i mean i think of like, Nelson George his book The Death of Rhythm and Blues uhuh forexample. which is not about rap it's pre-rap it's about R and B but it's about R and B breaking down, in a way that rap does too in a sense of turning it into crossover. and he's lamenting it becoming crossover and he says it gets watered down and diluted, of its cultural specificity in order to become more commercial, for example Michael Jackson Thriller. and he says that's too bad. because he longs for Teddy Pendergrass. and, and soul i- w- and so forth. and um, and yet i'm sure you would find people in the R and B community, who thought that uh Michael Jackson was cool. because it was rock, it was everything a little bit of everything, and that he didn't limit himself to merely black styles, of soul, or whatever. and i bet, that in the case of the Beastie Boys or some other crossover success like Will Smith for example, or Dr Dre, that there are some voices in the rap community, that thought it was good, and there's some that thought it was bad and i dislike the idea, of it being one mind cuz it's not that's a that's a, that's a reification you know what i mean? that's an invention, there is no such_ you can't put your microphone up to the rap community. you get different voices. and th- uh that comes out in the, in the Tricia Rose Black Noise book to some extent you know she's talking to the, the female rappers, are they feminists? well they're like no we're not feminists, but w- you know we stan- we stick up for women though. and then she says well what do you think about other those male rappers who talk about bitches and hoes all the time, do you find that offensive? and they're like well yeah sometimes it is. because it it reinforces you know bad behavior.

9S1: so how do i, fix that? because i i feel as though, what i wanna, say is is talk about um, i mean certainly that there is a sort of, level of um, i mean they they still continue to sell records they still

10S2: who?

11S1: c- uh, the Beastie Boys c- absolutely continue toto be, successful, very there'sum, they manage to uh, stay within the rap within, uh i i mean again i hate to use the word, word rap community but what i mean is that they um A Tribe Called Quest puts out, Midnight Marauders, mhmand the, cover of it uh the C-D has uh, you know, every rapper they know in headphones. you know everyone from, you know people in the Wu Tang to uh to, them and the Beasties are are there right there with them. right mhm nextto everybody and i mean it's, it's kind of funny because you can pick you know they're the only white faces on the disc, but um, but they're there in the same way that uh that, that Q-Tip comes and and does a guest spot on, on their record and uh, you know they win the, ninety-eight Video Vanguard Award the Michael Jackson Video Vanguard Award and it's presen-

12S2: i mean M-T-Vwho cares what M-T-V says?

13S1: it was presented to them by Chuck D and Public Enemy. mhmand the rest of th- Public Enemy and you know and and Chuck D's f- publicly gets up and says you know they were with us from the beginning and, mhm all thatnow wheth- whether or not you know that he was reading a TelePrompTer, mhmor or not i i think is uh

14S2: or if he was trying to make nice because of the fact that Public Enemy hasn't sold records lately, rightand he doesn't wanna look like some kinda old sourpuss

15S1: so, i- but i i think that like nonetheless that there's something that i'm grasping at there which is to say that they have, stuck around longer than oth- any other white rappers. they have sold more records more than any other white rappers they have um made more, f- they have more friends who rap, and rap, they have more rapper friends and they have more producer friends and they they have more ties in the, rap recording mhm industry,than any other white rapper so, i understand that's, that sort of the the word acceptance is a is dangerous territory because not everyone has liked them and it's not as though they've been, um, that they are liked everywhere they go or that they, e- everybody even thinks they're talented but at the same time, there's something there that i'm that i'm, yeah but if you struggling with not quite,getting

16S2: yeah. well i don't wanna sound too much like a n- a nattering, negativist but... like when people talk about the so-called jazz community the jazz community, renders judgments on things i mean i- it's an abstraction. you know? mhm andthe idea of the rap community is an abstraction. now there might be, some things, in the rap community that like everybody would agree with. you know that The Message was cool. or that uh, X Y or Z is not cool. but i would imagine, that the whole question of the Beastie Boys because, of their background in like party rap, as compared to conscious rap, that that would be something that would remain controversial. you know for groups like Underground Resistance for example. uhuhwho don't make party rap at all it's all conscious. they're always droppin' science you know? they're not foolin' around. and um, and i just... and i, i w- i wonder about that and i also think that it's probably, a ne- a necessary bit of opportunism on the part of some rappers, to say that the Beastie Boys are cool, because the Beastie Boys have_ are so, commercially successful. and that you don't wanna, you know you wanna get with a winner. you know? i mean there's a political part to it right? you know?

17S1: yeah oh i c- i completely understand what i what i'm, what i'm having difficulty with then, is to um

18S2: well i wanna render it you see my point is i this is something that i made last time and and um, it's just because i'm so much of a historian. and the and so, the kind of questions i ask are always historical type questions, and the historical question, isn't like... you know, why are the Beasties good? or how can i prove that they're good? i'm not saying that's your, point. but that th- that would be a point for a critic and but the historical question is like, what kind of uh, fields of of uh, ways of talking, about music about crossover about R and B about, the relationship between rap and rock, the relationship between rap and pop, in these whole fields, of of you know talking and institutions, of these different kinds of music, how did the presence of the Beastie Boys, illuminate how those fields work? in such a way, that the point isn't like you know, to prove that, to say that because they were accepted by the rap community, it it must mean that their music has really high quality flow, and, but rather like, how does the rap community constitute itself? but i'm asking questions for like f- kind of for a later draft, maybe. so, i don't wanna sound discouraging i think you should write this. one second.

19S1: okay is somebody at the door?

20S2: yeah, might be a quizzer. okay. yeah great. thank you for the book. Karen? how you doing? okay. oh you want your bag, i guess? okay.

21S3: thanks.

22S2: um, but i think that sounds

23S4: i was wondering hiif you could just sign this

24S2: so do you give money?

25S4: yeah yeah

26S2: oh

27S4: if you wanna give money

28S2: you drop class?

29S4: yeah, i'm taking four other classes so, alrighti couldn't handle the workload

30S2: okay. so workload

31S4: i need you to sign

32S2: here?

33S4: yeah

34S2: okay. by the way, are you related to the famous Naomi Bernstein?

35S4: no

36S2: okay

37S4: unless it's me

38S2: okay so you don't know any other Naomi Bernsteins? there's a there's a famous, i mean you're famous too yeahthere's another famous there's an art critic, or someone who writes on art whose name is Naomi Bernstein.

39S4: 'm'm

40S2: no relation... that's okay. there's lots of Peter Nelsons too. um, am i supposed to make a comment?

41S4: i don't think you have to

42S2: should i just say um, student, already has a heavy load?

43S4: yeah

44S2: just so they don't give you a hard time

45S4: thank you

46S2: i was really hoping you were gonna be there to, cover Greenberg and so forth you know

47S4: i'veread him believe me

48S2: okay

49S4: lots of him

50S2: okay. something to look forward to okay... i'm sorry you had to, leave class.

51S4: well thank you for everything

52S2: okaythanks Naomi. okay

53S4: thank you.

54S2: man i feel bad. okay, you look worried.

55S1: it's just i um,um umi'm having trouble with the with this, uh to step out from the yes from thischapter for a second in terms of, um, in terms of what i'm doing and in terms of what i'm writing and how i'm going yeah about it.i'm having a lot of trouble because i sort of feel as though, um, it it's frustrating because i have these ideas and then i- like i'll i'll for example with the last chapter like i

56S2: the folk

57S1: yes. um i, like read a lot for that and then, wrote a lot and whatever and and sort of uh you know, um, you know ate and slept and r- and and right breathed,that and then came back and then realized that like really, it was alright but that i needed a lot, okaylot more and and sort of like with this one i'm i'm having the same trouble because okay it'sum, because i'm sort of feel like i can't,

58S2: yeah

59S1: i i can't articulate what i'm trying to say i guess what i'm trying to, w- what i mean is that like, all of this, makes a great deal of sense to me but i always feel like, eh, almost as though what i'm trying to say, like i- is either a book, or it's um, something which is so, incredibly more complicated that i couldn't get a thesis out of it. mm. yeah do you see what i'm saying? like thetrying to, s-

60S2: right. trying to i'm asking toomuch

61S1: i- it's, it's not a question of asking too much i- it's a question of um, i- it's, and people who write about music sort of continually have to cover every base. rightyou know and have to make sure that i- it's like uh, i- i- you know trying to, to protect a uh, house from the yeah um,from uh the pouring rain every, everywhere you're coming there's a new, hole sprouting up in your argument. okayyou know what i mean? yeah andand so, it's difficult for me because the the, what i was saying last week about um about folk music makes a great deal of sense to me and then you know everywhere i go it's like well there's a new there's this new hole uh of, um, of you know, rappers who are actually saying, so- socially or culturally meaningful things, don't necessarily_ it doesn't matter what their background is because look at, who you know the the real guys look look at them, you know, they happen to be black but they're just as rich and they are you know they they they come from the same affluence yeahand so it's like, well, okay let's deal with that. and so go

62S2: that meansthat there's some problem with the, the idea of the folk. now i wanna say that in this thing, that, i don't i didn't see anything that, from the outline there uhuh thatstuck out, as, as uh intensely problematic, as the idea of the folk, as this organic... time... done um, you know what i mean? so, b- but the folk thing, it does, that did stick out, uhuhas a problematic term, particularly because it is, so often used, right. now th- that's um, as a ruralterm oh b- andyou're talking about such an urban music.

63S1: when i when i go back

64S2: so really it stuck outbut here, the idea of community is in no way as problematic as that.

65S1: okay. th- so

66S2: so i think you should write this.

67S1: if i write this and then sort of, say a- a- and uh, i- i- um do you remember there's a paragraph in chapter two where i said you know i, st- sort of stepped back and said i race to to note here, that um, that when i'm talking about, you know black musics or when i'm talking about a, uh i- you know music of, or black or white America, i in no way mean to overgeneral- generalize or imply that you know all blacks are poor living in the right right ghetto and blah blah blahthere was a, part where i sort of said, what i mean to specify is, that there is a, um specific community, or a specif- specific group of people that um, that understands, this as a as a, code. and i i don't even know if i have the chapter around. but the point is is i think that that, um, the idea of, uh, a- any rap community having, contradictory, and multiple voices is is one, that i want to inclu- include and one that i wanna sort of that's another base i wanna cover or a a hole that i would like to plug with a with a few paragraphs yeahum, but at the same time, i, i mean if you look at a group like 3rd Base, you know who sort of did a a_ had a very similar, mhm a giggoing you know three white rappers who were um, who were, you know from the same kind of background and trying to do the same thing and they just didn't have it. for whatever reason like they they were a party band as well i think, and they uh, they just, weren't that good. and i they didn't gain, an acceptance as measured by, support by other rappers um, album sales and, uh, you know support from, the media and M-T-V and and so forth, um that the Beasties did and by that that's what i mean by, acceptance which isn't to say that there is, one opinion which said yes you're okay but i think that, that, there is a uh, there is a a, something to be said for, for all of that as a a, an approval that uh, that others haven't gotten. mhm and it'san achievement. mhmdoes that make sense?

68S2: part of it does.

69S1: what part doesn't?

70S2: the commercial part.

71S1: you don't see the the commercial part as as, being indicative of anything?

72S2: it's indicative of popularity, but it's not indicative of quality.

73S1: yeah

74S2: i mean, because you know look Will Smith sells a gazillion records, or or pe- you know people like uh Shania Twain or even worse Jennifer Lopez as a singer? she's awful.

75S1: are you kidding? uh well, okay.

76S2: you think she's a good singer?

77S1: i don't think she's the best singer i think that

78S2: i mean she's great-looking and everything obviously for videos but her voice is like thin

79S1: i i think that um, the, style in which she's doing her music and the, instrumentation and and the um, the, her hispanocentrism, i think is something which is unusual, and it uhuhis something which is um, to be commended. and that's what i you know enjoy

80S2: well yeahi don't i don't i'm um_ you know i

81S1: got somebodyat the door

82S2: that part i like, uhuhbut i'm ask- i'm talkin- thanks. so we're done?

83S5: yeah

84S2: great

85S5: great

86S2: i'll just put this here, you may now take your bag.

87S5: should we anticipate a quiz on Thursday or?

88S2: uh,you can anticipate. i don't know if there is gonna be a quiz on Thursday actually i'm not sure

89S5: okay

90S2: i'm sorry

91S5: okay

92S1: you would give two quizzes in the same week?

93S2: it's_ no no no this is a make-up quiz

94S1: oh okay i was gonna say

95S2: it's a make up quiz.

96S5: okay thank you.

97S2: okay Karen

98S5: see you Thursday

99S2: um,right and the point about that is that, Jennifer Lopez is so popular not because, of being a good singer but because she hits the right buttons in terms of, uhuh whatyou mentioned hispanocentrism, and you know and ic- the fact that she's a movie star, rightand everything else, but y- if she were you know two hundred pounds, it wouldn't be the same and so forth itwould never happen and sang the same way rightso the point is i mean this is how pop works. you know y- commercial success in pop has very little to do with the quality of the music.

100S1: yeah. i guess i sort of

101S2: but ithink the rap leg- legitil- but so the part i liked was the legitimacy, you know if the fact that all these that they get really good uh, they have a really good reputation among musicians, uhuhthat other musicians really admire them and play on their records and so forth as this as a way of saying like, you know we dig what you're doin', then that is a sign of actually well it's a sign of the approval of other of your peers, but you know, when you turn on M-T-V and see all these groups that, sell millions of records, who are, musically nondistinguished, like Jennifer Lopez you realize it's not about the music, it's about image, it's about you know, other cultural codes

102S1: i think that the Beasties, what's, what surprises me about them is though, uh that everything they've done is so good. mhm i meannot, across the board, obviously but what i mean is that uh, that i think that there's a, um, that a lot of their, success and attention, has been pretty well deserved. i mean when they they

103S2: yeah but think of all those groups, okay but think of all those gazillion groups, that don't sell records

104S1: right but not, what i'm saying is not everyone gets the

105S2: are you saying they don't deservesuccess?

106S1: no. what i'm saying is is that not everyone gets the, the Video Vanguard Award. hm yeah umyou know the from, from M-T-V which is al- al- you know albeit a a uh, a

107S2: deeplycompromised he- yeah a deep- source ofrecognition

108S1: deeply compromised source of recognition sure but what i mean is is that uh, they do give airplay to people who are crap but at the same same time um they, you know the people who sort of, make it to the upper echelons of of their you know legendary status Madonna, uh, you know who are the people who've gotten the award? uh Madonna Michael Jackson Guns N' Roses, Tom Petty, uh, i forget a couple other people. um, but, you know these are all people who who have actually been putting out quality work that they_ it's it's not as though M-T-V wouldn't know quality if it hit 'em in the face, it's that um they amidst all this other, garbage that they're spewing out, you know twenty three hours a day, um there are people there who know what they're doing you know and and uh, mhmand, Kurt Loder, you know believe it or not is actually a pretty distinguished writer in in terms of some of his commentaries and and uh and, um, some of hi- his re- you know i i believe that he is aware of everything that's, you know e- exactly what kind of uh machines

109S2: you_ andi'm sure he realizes the Total Request Live is crap, rightand it's all aimed toward teenagers, and he's a middle-aged man, and i'm sure he's very embarrassed he's like what, what am i doing here? rightwell he's picking up a paycheck. he's a whore.

110S1: i disagree

111S2: really? okay

112S1: i thinkthat he, um is using the news, uh M-T-V news to uh, for his own, for his own agenda and he is sort of the uh, he's sort of the last, guy kicking and screaming for for quality in the corner and he's mm sort ofpushing everyth- you know what i mean? like they uh

113S2: maybe that's the case maybe he is the last, soldier who thought that M-T-V could actually, uh try to push good music rather than just, you know Brittany Spears.

114S1: i mean i- it's sort of like if you watch um, Total Request Live versus watching uh, something, any of his special reports or any of the Rockumentaries that he used to put yeah onor or anything. the, the amount of attention the amount of intellectual space that's being taken up, is vastly different. so i i sort of feel like there, yeah okay there is ayou know, that to to say that s- um t- that, recognition by, mainstream sources, um you know getting, on the cover of Rolling Stone or Spin or or and whatever you know, would necessar- wouldn't necessarily be, a, a marker of quality at the same time, um, you can't get to the level that they've gotten to without, without uh, you know you can make it to the cover of Rolling Stone once. you can't make it to the cover of Rolling Stone more than once, and have three different Spin covered devoted to you on the same month, you know they did that, one, head on every, issue thing and um, you don't get that without, without having as they would say the skills to pay the bills. do you see what i'm saying?

115S2: i disagree with that really but i seeyour point. i've seen Brittany Spears on the cover of Rolling Stone.

116S1: more than once?

117S2: well she's only seventeen but give her another fifteen years and, let's see. i i ithink Shania Twain's probably been on the cover of Rolling Stone more than once and i think she's really undistinguished.

118S1: really? especially_ uh even in terms of of her, message and agenda in the music

119S2: well no we're talking aboutmusic.

120S1: just_ right but i think that the the

121S2: seeif you talk about uh cultural codes and all the nonmusical stuff which uh, which is more important th- for pop music than music that's, that's another thing but if you're trying to make an argument, that the Beastie Boys are on the cover, because of their music not because of the codes around the music i think that that's another kind ofargument. the i-of course Shania Twain's on the cover, and Jennifer Lopez because of the codes not because of their singing.

122S1: right but Shania Twain the, codes are inextricable from her music i think. i mean you listen to, th- to to her albums and it it's not, um it's not very deeply entrenched. you see what i'm saying? you don't have to dig, very deep to to, um, you know a- and s- and so when that's, in the lyrics you can't you can't just say that like well the music's completely different from her message because the two are, one in the same aren't they?

123S2: well the message is alot of image. okay but what i mean is like what if it was a really, great singer, singing those songs?

124S1: Shania's Twain songs?

125S2: yeah.

126S1: what if? i'm not following.

127S2: well, i think my point is that, see i went to this concert, on Friday night of Myra Melford who's a pianist, who in my opinion is a very distinguished pianist there were forty people there. she's probably forty years old has put out maybe four records. um, she has played with masters you know Roscoe Mitchell and, and Henry Threadgill and all these masters of jazz music. but jazz music of course is a minority music. it makes four percent of American record sales. so with the exception of Wynton Marsalis, and Cassandra Wilson, uh jazz musicians sell records in the thousands of copies. so, the whole idea of commercial success in that kind of music, is is a uh, very vexed thing when you compare it to the behemoth of, of a genre people sells records in the millions like pop. so what that tell- i so i come in with the basic idea, that music that sells lots of records even for many many years, is in no way related to the quality of the music. because i think there are a lot of bands, that can keep up putting out schlock for years and years and years, because they have audiences that don't demand very much from them, and use it as a nostalgia act or for sex symbols or whatever, and i think the case can be made that the Beastie Boys have more interesting music, than a lot of schlock acts, but the fact that they're successful, like selling records in the millions whereas Myra Melford sells records in the thousands, the fact that they're commercially successful has, no relationship to their quality.

128S1: you sound so much like Adorno sometimes. just in terms of of of, your cynicism about the pop machine. you know and and and not being related to quality and and i um, one of the things that that, i am, and i s- this is a, perhaps a discussion for another time but i sort of feel like, um, i want to, agree with that, for the most part but i also know that um, i spent, a lot of time sort of being um, a- cantankerous in in terms of not wanting to like anything that was pushed on me. rightthat i would see th- you know i- if it was top forty i was not interested. um, was not interested whatsoever. and uh

129S2: i'm not saying to be_ uh okay i don't wanna do that. i don't wanna i'm not trying to sound i'm not really Adorno in the sense like i think pop music is bad, rightit's evil, and it's and it's nothing but culture distributing, smashed down your throat, uhuhwhat i'm trying to say is that, some pop music, um, can be very very good, but much of it, you know like much of culture, much of high culture much of it is junk. cuz that's you know, most_ it- it's only rarely that people make really interesting stuff cuz that's just how culture works you know? that's how art works in all genres. and so, the fact that, the Rolling Stones can go on tour, and sell out all these stadiums and put out a record that has no distinguished songs on it, and that, has made no innovation and and nothing it, it seems clear that they're just like you know it's just the cash register. and who won't play in Thailand because, well Thailand had a depression and people can't afford the tickets. and then they can't make any money there cuz they'd have to sell tickets for only two dollars, and what's the point of going to Thailand if you can only sell two dollars where in New York you can sell tickets for seventy-five dollars, to see these codgers play, and it makes me r- realize that there is no real relationship between the amount of money somebody makes, over decades and the quality of the music. and also going to see, you know jazz veterans, or classical music veterans, um who play for an audience of a hundred and who sell records in the thousands and have been doing it for decades, you kn- it makes, you know it just makes me, keep in mind that, album sales, you know like ticket sales for movies is not in my opinion something that tells you that something's, high musical quality it's something that says that it's highly popular. which isn't to say everything popular's bad and that, i'm against Hollywood and against pop and so forth it

130S1: so,aside then from, recognition of peers and, how does one_ how do i, i i mean i wa-

131S2: wellyou you could say, i- like from a historical point of view that it is very interesting, that the Beastie Boys have gotten, lots and lots of good reviews. mhmand this is where you can s- you know you could catalog the reviews and say, this is pretty remarkable probably, there are probably only about three rap groups that have gotten, reviews as good as the Beastie Boys over the course of the past ten years. you know, what Tribe Called Quest Brand Nubian, and somebody i don- i don't know who else?

132S1: um, okay.

133S2: The Roots i don't know

134S1: Dr Dre

135S2: Dr Dre well but, but he his is, shoddy cuz his last couple records got, right gotyou know, two stars.

136S1: right. right but i'm st- the that one record earlier Dr Dreanyway. and maybe, Puffy if you

137S2: oh

138S1: although that's a whole other can of worms.

139S2: that's pop. that's not rap anymore.

140S1: alright. um

141S2: i i don't wanna sound like Adorno i'm just i'm trying to make you more historical, rightby saying, what are the very terms, that make something, called successful. okayyou know what i mean? and i think this is good i think you should write this and i don't wanna sound negative okay i wannabe encouraging you should write this there's there's no, there's no like red flag here at all

142S1: okay. and now what i'm also worried about is is that uh, is just, in all honesty i am um, this has sorta ha- been my priority all semester, yeahand i feel like i am um, devoting

143S2: too much

144S1: t- well not too much but i- i- just, proportionally too much. yeahespecially to to have a a draft of a of a third chapter, in the middle of October, for, y- you know for something th- that uh, that i have after October's over s- an additional six months, to have completed, okayi- it to me i- it's like um, i'm i'm just, really on the

145S2: okay well do you wantto then um, i'm speaking fast because i kn- i know you have to right right. i do have to be at work go and i i wanna be asconciliatory as possible because i understand what you're saying. do you wanna work then on the other_ on the first two chapters just like work on them for a while? well see i togetherwe can just kind of like, tweak them for a while? i s- i always likethe idea of having a a big picture first, and then fix it because then you'llknow what you know cuz if you like rewrite rewrite chapter one you'll realize, that you might be wasting your time vis a vis chapter four.

146S1: right. um

147S2: or do you just wanna come and talk lemme about thebooks and issues and something like that? i mean it's not feeling

148S1: lemme finish thischapter, either for next Tuesday or the following. um, was that on the wall? uh, for for next Tuesday or the following and then, okayum, because i, i also then the fourth chapter i had slated as sort of a history of the Beastie Boys okay and i'mnot sure, ho- i i mean i suppose that i could tell a story there but i don't i'm not sure that i would have a point, or an argument. and so

149S2: maybe it should bethe history of their reception by critics.

150S1: which uh even there is a i mean what i so what i'd like to do is finish this chapter and then um, i mean i- i- if, if we spend all of, November and December, editing, rehashing whatever i s- i, almost like i- i- it um, and you know i could be entirely wrong about this or overly optimistic, but i sort of feel like then i would be, done with those few chapters by Christmas break mhm and icould, um, you know and and i don't know what i'm gonna be doing at all next semester. um

151S2: don't youhave any classes?

152S1: no no i mean here with this thesis oh i meani'm gonna be having other classes but it would would it mean that like, if i i mean i feel like i'm worf- working at this same pace, okaythat i do or anything near i'm gonna be_ have, edited re-edited hashed rehashed and and you know and have, a pretty damn good product by

153S2: that's my hope, by Christmas and then but maybe it's too harddriving huh?

154S1: well and then in January, i- does it mean that i get January through, i mean i- should i plan to have, January through um, April to, uh to have it done and you know maybe tweak slightly but not, work as hard? am i am i working on that or i- because i sort of_ that's something that you and i haven't talked about

155S2: yeah we haven't. but we can't now

156S1: and so,so i'm i'm also like i'm afraid, like if i'm like

157S2: dowhat you, d- why don't you write this up?

158S1: if i'm gonna be workingthis hard, every week no you won't for the nextsix months then ii'm gonna, die.

159S2: okay well then then that's not gonna happen.

160S1: okay. so

161S2: that's notgonna happen so don't worry about it

162S1: can we shoot to have to sort of complete, everything and and then in December and then

163S2: that's up to you. yeah.

164S1: okay

165S2: yeah. mi- mm, i'm uh in favor of the idea of writing, getting drafts of all the chapters done uhuh so thatyou can look at the lay of the land, so that you can actually revise with a sense of how it all hangs together. uhuhthat's, my purpose okay as far ashow many times you end up revising in the spring, it's really up to you because that's when you're really, facing not you know are you gonna get a a C or a B or whatever, because th- that's, not in the cards i don't think. but rather, your own sense of, how, you know much of a leap you wanna okay makebetween a usual seminar paper, and this as your kind of like you know most graduate-school-like thing. that's kind of up to you.

166S1: okay. because we can talk about i also know thati you know that uh, from having, turned in things to you before and and stuff like that i know that i could turn it in and after five times that you would still have, comments which would, completely either, you know mhm revitalizethe whole thing or or things that that would um, you know what i mean? yeahthat that it's uh

167S2: i try to_ i have to restrain myself. i'm trying to be inspiring but i don't wanna sound negative. i think it's really interesting and just it inspires me cuz i think of all these new angles, uhuhbut i guess when you hear it, when you hear me say new angles, you think i'm saying that, sometimes that the angles you have, are, are only the beginning that you see like an endless horizon.

168S1: well you you understand my concern then

169S2: yeah. yeah yeah.and so i'll restrain myself that's why i say just write as much draft as you can, okayand we can talk about it and like i said, there's nothing in here like the folk thing that like sticks out as something that must be smashed.

170S1: a- andthat f- the problem with the folk chapter i think is strictly one of nomenclature. that that no that'sone where you know i i was talking about yeah functionsand characteristics yeahand whether or not i call it folk you know

171S2: right you could go the Ollie Wilson direction who doesn't talk at folk.

172S1: right and and just sort of say this is, you know call it what you want to, rightand then um

173S2: it's an incredibly thorny topic for everybody it's not like you're like you know behind the eight ball, because you stumble over the idea of folk you know what i mean? that is like

174S1: right.i just

175S2: everywhere everybody. it's it's what makes this field_ it's like, a philosophical conundrum that makes this field interesting. okay cuz it'slike the unavoidable concept, of that the folk authenticates music, as culturally right. and then real. it's justit's like you know, the black hole everybody gets sucked into.

176S1: i so i wanna sort of divest myself of that. um can i

177S2: this isgood this is good stuff. okay you're doinggreat.

178S1: just_ ach also uh, there was something else i was gonna tell you and i can't remember.

179S2: did, did you see the Public Enemy last week?

180S1: no

181S2: you didn't

182S1: i uh i went and saw Martin Sexton and oh isaw um, somebody else. i forget oh uh, (Vacobena) and hm uh,(Anthony Demoni.)

183S2: yup and yup.good?

184S1: yeah. so well somebody surprised me with tickets and we had front row. ohso um, ah it was it was really bad because like they uh, we thought the show started at eight, yeahand, it started at_ or we thought it it started thought at eight thirty. and it was actually starting at eight, yeahand then um, so sowe went to Pizza House for dinner beforehand, yeah andsort of got the food at seven thirty, looked at our tickets realized it was eight oh' clock and we'd just ordered this big pitcher of uh of Bell's and yeah well youknow s- twelve dollar pitcher so

185S2: what'syour age?

186S1: i'm twenty-one now

187S2: okay

188S1: so, we, had this

189S2: i don't wanna be harboring a cr- fugitive

190S1: not at all. so uh, so we, we you know we had to eat in, the space of fifteen minutes to, then make it over to the to the theater and there was no way we were gonna leave without you know paying we paid for, twelve dollars worth, we were gonna, drink it all so the absolutely first,so exac- well i mean come on we paid for it. so uh, so i was sleepy through the entire show and i was and it was just really bad and i sort of was you know they asked us to clap and i couldn't for the life of me cl- clap on rhythm and that was a little embarrassing, but um, but the show was wonderful. had the good bestguitar players i've ever seen, ever. just in terms of straight, great uh,technical ability. okay um, i'll be back in a week then.

191S2: okay i wanna recommend a record to you which one? the name'sMe'S hell NdegeOcello

192S1: what the new one?

193S2: yeah

194S1: is it good?

195S2: yes

196S1: really.

197S2: it's all make-out music

198S1: is it?

199S2: yeah huhit's anti-crime music.

200S1: i've, i've been still been listening a lot to uh to, Macy Gray

201S2: okay, it's the same thing

202S1: you're enjoying it? absolutely did youbuy the disc or did you?

203S2: no i'm just (trying the tape of it.)

204S1: the uh_ you know her voice it's like a preview record of what it would be like if uh Lauryn Hill and Tom Waits had a baby. (if they)

205S2: uhuh, they_ and they named it, rock and roll

206S1: yeah

207S2: yeah yeah

208S1: anyway

209S2: yeah

210S1: alright well i'll have more soon and uh, i'll leave it in your box if you wanna look

211S2: okay. it's definitely solid. i un- i understand that we're, moving fast but since i wanted to give the idea but, maximum written for revisions. so that's the good news but you- you're saying it's like, too much deadlines for drafts, so

212S1: wellit's uh i'm also just, i think that i i made a horrible decision, in terms of you know in terms values of timeno no. in terms of four in- uh, four independent studies.

213S2: yeah, that was yeah

214S1: because i am budgeting all my own time and sort of like i explained this to all my teachers. (xx) it's just like i need a a class where they say, write a one-page response paper to this thing, yeahonce a week, so that i can, feel like i've got it yes donerather than once a month like having to turn in twenty pages to, hm, right (xx) you knowit's like ugh. righti gotta call over to work okay, right here. and tell 'em i'm gonna be thereis it alright if use your yeah phone?okay...

215S2: hi. i forgot your name is it Emily?